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Golf Digest Ireland’s Top 100 Ranking 2010

Royal County Down is number one in the 2010 Golf Digest Ireland Top-100 rankings.

Royal County Down has regained its spot as Ireland’s top course in the annual Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 ranking.

The Co Down links swapped places with Portmarnock, the number one course in 2009, as Royal Portrush rose one place to third and The European Club dropped one to fourth in a ranking compiled by a panel of golf course architects, former amateur internationals and golf administrators.

The Robert Trent Jones Snr designed Adare in Limerick is the only parkland course in the Top 10 while there are eight new entries in the top 50 alone and 21 in total. (Click here for 2008 ranking and here for 2009)

In a controversial move, Golf Digest Ireland has decided that “all golf clubs that we were aware of being in receivership, at the time of publication, were not considered in these rankings.”

Jack Nicklaus’ Killeen Castle in Co Meath, host venue for next year’s Solheim Cup, is the top new entry for 2010 at 14th followed by the Nick Faldo course at Lough Erne (22nd). Other high ranking new entries include the Old Tom Morris Course at Rosapenna (33rd), the West Course at Powerscourt (38th), Concra Wood in Co Monaghan (39th), The Valley Course at Royal Portrush (44th), Farnham Estate in Co Cavan (48th) and Luttrellstown (49th).

Golf Digest Ireland’s Top 100 Ranked Golf Courses 2010

 

Royal County Down1. Royal County Down

Position – Up 1

Where – Co. Down

 

 

 

Portmarnock GC

2. Portmarnock

Position – Down 1

Where – Co. Dublin

 

 

 

Royal Portrush3. Royal Portrush

Position – Up 1

Where – Co. Antrim

 

 

 

The European Club4. The European Club

Position – Down 1

Where – Co. Wicklow

 

 

 

Ballybunion GC5. Ballybunion (Old)

Position – Same

Where – Co. Kerry

 

 

 

Waterville6. Waterville

Position – Same

Where – Co. Kerry

 

 

 

Lahinch GC7. Lahinch

Position – U 1

Where – Co. Clare

 

 

 

Adare Golf Club8. Adare

Position – Down 1

Where – Co. Limerick

 

 

 

County Louth9. County Louth (Baltray)

Position –  Same

Where – Co. Louth

 

 

 

Tralee10. Tralee

Position – Up 1

Where – Co. Kerry

 

 

 

11. County Sligo (Rosses Point)
Position – Up 5
Where – Co. Sligo
 
12. The Island
Position – Up 6
Where – Co. Dublin
 
13. Mount Juliet
Position – Down 1
Where – Co. Kilkenny
 
14. Killeen Castle
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Meath
 
15. The K Club (Palmer Course)
Position – Down 5
Where – Co. Kildare
 
16. Ballyliffin (Glashedy Links)
Position – Down 1
Where – Co. Donegal
 
17. Enniscrone
Position – Up 3
Where – Co. Sligo
 
18. Royal Dublin
Position – Down 5
Where – Co. Dublin
 
19. Donegal (Murvagh Links)
Position – Up 30
Where – Co. Donegal
 
20. Portstewart (Strand)
Position – Up 4
Where – Co. Londonderry
 
21. Rosapenna (Sandy Hills)
Position – Down 4
Where – Co. Donegal
 
22. Lough Erne
Position - NEW
Where – Co. Fermanagh
 
23. Killarney (Killeen Course)
Position – Down 9
Where – Co. Kerry
 
24. Carlow  
Position – Up 8
Where – Co. Carlow
 
25. Belmullet (Carne)
Position – Down 4
Where – Co. Mayo
 
26. Seapoint
Position – Up 1
Where – Co. Louth
 
27. Druids Glen
Position – Down 5
Where – Co. Wicklow
 
28. Castlerock
Position – Same
Where – Co. Londonderry
 
29. Cork
Position – Up 8
Where – Co. Cork
 
30. Carton House (Montgomerie Course)
Position – Down 4
Where – Co. Kildare
 
31. Portmarnock Links
Position – Down 6
Where – Co. Dublin
 
32. Ballyliffin (Old Links)
Position – Up 6
Where – Co. Donegal
 
33. Rosapenna (Old Tom Morris)
Position - NEW
Where – Co. Donegal
 
34. The K Club (Smurfit Course)
Position – Up 6
Where – Co. Kildare
 
35. Portsalon
Position – Up 10
Where – Co. Donegal
 
36. Doonbeg Links
Position – Down 2
Where – Co. Clare
 
37. Dooks
Position – Up 30
Where – Co. Kerry
 
38. Powerscourt (West)
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Wicklow
 
39. Concra Wood
Position - NEW
Where – Co. Monaghan
 
40. Headfort (New)
Position – Down 10
Where – Co. Meath
 
41. Malone
Position – Down 8
Where – Co. Antrim
 
42. Slieve Russell
 Position – Down 6
Where – Co. Cavan
 
43. Belvoir Park
Position – Down 8
Where – Co. Down
 
44. Royal Portrush (The Valley)
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Antrim
 
45. Westport
Position – Down 2
Where – Co. Mayo
 
46. Dun Laoghaire
Position – Down 7
Where – Co. Wicklow
 
47. Old Head Golf Links (Kinsale)
Position – Down 18
Where – Co. Cork
 
48. Farnham Estate
Position – NEW
Where – Co Cavan
 
49. Luttrellstown
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Dublin
 
50. Dundalk
Position – Down 2
Where – Co. Louth
 
51 Narin and Portnoo
Position – Up 29
Where – Co. Donegal
 
52 Carton House (O’Meara Course)
Position – Down 5
Where – Co. Kildare
 
53. Tullamore
Position – Up 6
Where – Co. Offaly

54. Palmerstown Stud
Position – Down 23
Where – Co. Kildare
 
55. Druids Heath
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Wicklow
 
56. Connemara
Position – Up 2
Where – Co. Galway
 
57. Hermitage
Position – Down 5
Where – Co. Dublin
 
58. Tramore
Position – Down 4
Where – Co. Waterford
 
59. Bunclody Golf and Fishing Club
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Wexford
 
60. Glasson
Position – Down 14
Where – Co. Westmeath
 
61. Portumna
Position - NEW
Where – Co. Galway
 
62. Arklow
Position – Up 21
Where – Co. Wicklow
 
63 Powerscourt (East)
Position – Down 22
Where – Co. Wicklow
 
64. Killarney Golf and Fishing (Lackabane)
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Kerry
 
65. Dromoland Castle
Position – Down 12
Where – Co. Clare

66. Kilkenny
Position – Down 9
Where – Co. Kilkenny
 
67. Rathsallagh
Position – Down 17
Where – Co. Wicklow
 
68. Ardglass
Position – NEW
Where – Co Down
 
69. Clandeboye
Position – Down 7
Where – Co. Down
 
70. Bantry Bay
Position – Down 15
Where – Co. Cork
 
71 St. Anne’s
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Dublin
 
72. Shannon
Position – Down 4
Where – Co. Clare
 
73. Royal Belfast
Position – Down 2
Where – Co. Down
 
74. Castlemartyr
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Cork
 
75. Courtown
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Wexford
 
76. Mount Wolseley
Position – Down 34
Where – Co. Carlow
 
77. Balbriggan
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Dublin
 
78. Mullingar
Position – Down 22
Where – Co. Westmeath
 
79. Knightsbrook
Position – Down 35
Where – Co. Meath
 
80. Castle
Position – Down 14
Where – Co. Dublin
 
81. Galway
Position – Up 1
Where – Co. Galway
 
82. Galgorm Castle
Position – Up 8
Where – Co. Antrim
 
83. Strandhill
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Sligo
 
84. Grange
Position – Down 19
Where – Co. Dublin
 
85. Castletroy
Position – Up 4
Where – Co. Limerick
 
86. Laytown and Bettystown
Position – Down 2
Where – Co. Meath
 
87. Skellig Bay
Position – Down 13
Where – Co. Kerry
 
88. Ashbourne
Position – Down 3
Where – Co. Meath
 
89. Galway Bay
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Galway
 
90. Athlone
Position – Down 14
Where – Co. Roscommon
 
91. Ballinrobe
Position – Up 5
Where – Co. Mayo
 
92. Faithlegg
Position – NEW
Where – Co. Waterford
 
93. Ballybunion (Cashen)
Position – Down 6
Where – Co. Kerry
 
94. Blainroe
Position – Up 1
Where – Co. Wicklow
 
95. Woodbrook
Position – Down 26
Where – Co. Wicklow
 
96. Letterkenny
Position - NEW
Where – Co. Donegal
 
97. Curragh
Position – Down 5
Where – Co. Kildare
 
98. Rosslare
Position – Down 22
Where – Co. Wexford

99. Esker Hills
Position – Down 24
Where – Co. Offaly
 
100. Roganstown
Position – Down 27
Where – Co. Dublin

Golf Digest Ireland’s Top 25 Ranked Links Golf Courses

 

1. Royal County Down
2. Portmarnock
3. Royal Portrush
4. The European Club
5. Ballybunion (Old)
6. Waterville
7. Lahinch
8. Co. Louth (Baltray)
9. Tralee
10. Co. Sligo
11. The Island
12. Ballyliffin (Glashedy Links)
13. Enniscrone
14. Royal Dublin  
15. Donegal (Murvagh Links)
16. Portstewart (Strand)
17. Rosapenna (Sandy Hills)
18. Belmullet (Carne)
19. Seapoint
20. Castlerock
21. Portmarnock Links
22. Ballyliffin (Old Links)
23. Rosapenna (Old Tom Morris)
24. Portsalon
25. Doonbeg

Golf Digest Ireland’s Top 25 Ranked Parkland Golf Courses

1. Adare
2. Mount Juliet
3. Killeen Castle
4. The K Club (Palmer)
5. Lough Erne
6. Killarney (Killeen)
7. Carlow
8. Druids Glen
9. Cork
10. Carton House (Montgomerie)
11. The K Club (Smurfit)
12. Powerscourt (West)
13. Concra Wood
14. Headfort (New)
15. Malone
16. Slieve Russell
17. Belvoir Park
18. Dun Laoghaire
19. The Old Head of Kinsale
20. Farnham Estate
21. Luttrellstown
22. Dundalk
23. Carton House (O’Meara Course)
24. Tullamore
25. Palmerstown Stud

According to Golf Digest Ireland:

Since we started this process of grading courses, it has served to highlight the splendid work clubs throughout the country have been doing to upgrade their facilities. This year, the panel has been modified from 2009 with the addition of some fresh blood to help ensure this massive undertaking got the attention it deserves.
Eddie Connaugton, an esteemed agronomist; Kate McCann, an experienced Curtis Cup Player; Valerie Hassett also of the Curtis Cup ; Cecil Whelan, founder of the famously charitable Links Society and a man this magazine voted as one of the Top 50 most influential people in Irish golf; and Ally McIntosh, the course designer and a writer of regular architecture columns in these pages are all new to the panel, but have the kind of expertise in the industry that is indispensable when trying to make these tough decisions.
They joined our existing panelists Declan Branigan, agronomist and course-designer; Mark Gannon, a Royal and Ancient selector; Michael McCumiskey, the Secretary of the PGA Irish Region; Garth McGimpsey, a former Walker Cup captain; John Quigley, of the Association of Irish Golf Club Secretaries and, of course, the panel’s chairman: Pádraig O hUiginn.
 
The decision process
76 golf clubs wrote to the panel, either to detail various upgrade work that had taken place over the course of the year, or to request a visit. Each one was visited and accessed over a four month period, as was a further list of 29 golf clubs who did not make last year’s rankings but merited another assessment.
Over a four month period, these golf clubs were visited and assessed.
In October, the panel met for the final time and discussed and debated their individual assessments. Through agreement, 20 clubs were selected that could possibly make it into the top ten. The panel then voted on these courses using a marking system from one to 10, under these headings:
 
- Shot making/variety 10 points
- Design variety 10 points
- Memorability 10 points
- Condition 10 points
- Playability (all handicaps) 10 points
- Degree of difficulty/fairness 10 points

 
Once the Top-10 had been decided, the panel then debated what 20 clubs could possibly make it into the 11-20 bracket, and the individual voting process was repeated. The same process was continued throughout the 100 positions.
 
All golf clubs that we were aware of being in receivership, at the time of publication, were not considered in these rankings.
 
The Panel:
Pádraig O hUiginn
Eddie Connaughton
Kate MacCann
Valerie Hassett
Cecil Whelan
John Quigley
Declan Branigan
Michael McCumiskey
Mark Gannon
Ally McIntosh
Garth McGimpsey

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Reader Comments (50)

All I can say with clarity and confidence is that the rating positions in respect of the Connacht Parkland Courses is completely off the chart, incorrect, and typifies the many inaccuracies that most likely exist in the list which is antiquated in its process and Panel.

November 4, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterEnda Lonergan

Enda, I'd be interested to hear your Connacht parkland ranking. Let's have your top 10.

November 4, 2010 | Registered CommenterBrian Keogh

I must set out my stall and suggest that "lists" like these are pretty worthless IMHO. The real test of a golf course is whether the golfer enjoys the game of golf and is willing to return to play the golf course... I cannot see how the... "Degree of difficulty/fairness 10 points" ... has the same weighting as "Shot making/variety 10 points".
I dont suggest that "shot making" is the ultimate weighting in assessing a golf course. "Fun" ... "enjoyment" ... IMHO are the characteristics of real golf.
I wont even comment on the rankings...


Regards,
Ken K.

November 4, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterKen Kearney

This is another rather strange Irish ranking list if I may be so bold. One cannot really argue with the Top 10, apart from the order, but the list is bizarre: Doonbeg at 36 and Old Head at 47 seems frankly strange. I’m not sure why Fota Island, the Heritage and Moyvalley were omitted, we know the receivers are in but it seems overly harsh to kick a facility when down, especially when they are still open and operating. On a positive note, it’s nice to see the Valley course at Portrush getting your recognition along with Ardglass, but I am genuinely surprised that Birr has not made your list, especially given that Eddie Connaughton has joined your panel.

November 4, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterKeith Baxter

Thanks for your comments Keith. Just to clarify, it's not my list but a Golf Digest Ireland ranking. I am sure they will be keen to read some reactions to their list here.

November 4, 2010 | Registered CommenterBrian Keogh

I am delighted that our club (Portumna) has been selected in the top 100 for the 1st time. It is a great honour for us as we only went 18 in 1991, bought the lease on the course in 93, opened our 1st sand based greens 14th/15th in '94. Portumna is a member-owned course and there is great credit due to officers, committees and staff past and present to get us to this high standard. Congrats to our present officers, Captains, Pete and Marie and President, Judith.

Mr.Baxter,

That sounds like a smear campaign to me?

November 5, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterTom

I am completely with Ken Kearney on this one, I have worked directly in the Administration and Tournament end of Connacht Club & Championship Golf for no less than 17years and I can say with absolute clarity and certainty that the Rankings of the Parkland Courses based in Connacht in this list is quite simply WRONG.
Anyone playing golf in Connacht on a regular basis will know this and I feel that many of the courses on the list in general are their based on their historical placings and perhaps if one compared them on the basis at which they are presently presented, the way they stand up to modern equipment advances for both the Elite and Club Golfer, and the level of pleasure taken from playing them an entirely different set of results would no doubt become apparent.
It's time to get the people currently actively working in golf for the last 15years instead of 50years ranking these courses and not the marketing budgets of those on the lists.

November 5, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterEnda Lonergan

Just seen your request for my personal Connacht parkland Top Ten Brian and for what its worth here it is:

1. Galway
2. Athlone
3. Galway Bay
4. Portumna
5. Castle Dargan
6. Ballinrobe
7. Castlebar
8. Westport
9. Roscommon
10. Athenry

And while I'm at it I might as well do the Links
1. Co. Sligo
2. Belmullet
3. Enniscrone
4. Connemara
5. Strandhill
6. Mulranny
7. Achill

Bear in mind that on the Golf Digest List many of my Top 10 don't even feature and the Club which I am a Member of (Westport) is ranked Top Connacht parkland.

Enda L.

November 5, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterEnda Lonergan

Enda, That's a great Connacht Parkland Top 10. Guess it was asking too much to see my friends at Ballaghaderreen included.

November 5, 2010 | Registered CommenterBrian Keogh

Great to see Balbriggan make the list for first time Recent upgrading has been well worthwhile. Pat McGrath

November 10, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterPat McGrath

I can't understand why Coollattin in Co. Wicklow hasn't made this list. In terms of scenery and enjoyment it would be very high on my list and the course has been upgraded and toughened (with three new holes) in the past couple of years.

November 11, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterJohn R.

Enda,

In fairness, there is nothing to say that 10 Connaught parkland courses have to appear in the Top 100.

I see that there are 6 with the highest at No.45

All 6 of them appear in your Top 10. There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of inconsistency to me.

I agree with the order of your top Connaught links. So does the Golf Digest list.

November 11, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterTom

In response to Tom, I would not suggest for one minute that there should be 5, 6, or 7 Connacht Parkland courses in the Top 100, in fact if there were only 2 or 3 good enough then that's all that should be in there. My big issue with this list and many others like it is that they are based on historical prowess rather current day specs and accepted industry standards for golf courses.
Many Clubs have made it onto the list becuase of other aspects to their facility other than Course and for me this is totally the wrong focus.
A list of Ireland's Top 100 Courses, should be just that, The Courses and it should be based on modern day Greenkeeping Standrads and how the Courses stand up against modern day playing equipment.
Based on these criteria I would respectfully suggest about 40% of those currently on the Top 100 are unworthy of their ranking and many other hidden modern gems around the country should be in there.

November 12, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterEnda Lonergan

Hi All,

I was asked to sit on the Golf Digest panel this year so thought I’d have a quick say.

Enda – Personally, I’d disagree with your thoughts that the primary source of judging a golf course should be modern green keeping standards and industry norms and specs. I’d be much more in line with Mr. Kearney in stating that fun and enjoyment should come first, obviously with a healthy dose of many other considerations falling in behind. I’m afraid to admit that I haven’t played or walked all of the 450 courses around the country so I certainly may have missed something. Therefore any direction towards some hidden gems would be most welcome.

One course I’ve never seen is Birr (although other panel members certainly have). Mr. Baxter –You know I am fond of your excellent website because I have commented there before. But to pick out the three major anomalies between your list and the Golf Digest list and use that as argument for the Golf Digest list being “bizarre” is a little disingenuous in my book.

Golf rankings can never satisfy everyone because we all take different experiences from any one round. But I do believe that there are ways of being objective about what is good and what is bad. And I do believe these rankings serve a purpose.

I’m glad to see people discussing them anyway.

Ally McIntosh

November 12, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterAlly McIntosh

Well done to all the courses that made the top 100. Delighted to see Concra Wood in at number 39. There is no doubt in my mind that in another 3-4 years this course will be up there with the absolute best in the country. No parkland course in Ireland has the scenery to match here. Happy golfing to all readers.

November 12, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterAlan

Listings are a good method of provoking debate and a number of qualities make a good golf course. While I admit to a certain bias I am convinced Greenore GC should certainly be in any Top 100 list, it is consistently in great condition, demands good shotmaking and the scenery is wonderful.

November 15, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterEamonn McCartan

Great to see Portumna GC in at No.61. Having played most of the courses ahead of Portumna in the list I think at least half of them are not nearly as good as Portumna which is one of the hidden gems of Ireland and where you can get great value golf for €25/30. Bring on next years list !!!!!

November 15, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterDanny Losty

Hey. Just read endas comments.Very interesting. If the results went by modern greenkeeping standards like he suggets then i would regard strandhill as further up the list. I played all the local courses around sligo mayo area and strandhill has had the best greens all year. fantastic golf course a true gem and glad to see it in the top 100 well done to strandhill. ill definetley be back to play next year and well done to all clubs that made the top 100

December 6, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterJohn

All feedback is useful but when that feedback is making large presumptions and sweeping statements like the last two comments, it loses its worth unless it states specifics and reasons.

As for leaving gems out: I said above that I'd love to hear of any recommendations (and why). The panel discussed a large number of courses so I'd like to think that nothing was missed. But there is always the possibility that something slipped through the net and at the very least merits further discussion when the next ranking is compiled.

Ally McIntosh

December 9, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterAlly McIntosh

Ally,
There's clearly a lot of controversy here. I too have had a huge number of comments from my readers after I highlighted anomalies on the list. I, like the likes of Enda and Kevin Markham (author of Hooked) and many others would consider myself a pretty fair judge of a course working in the industry being a low handicap and having had the unique honour of having played 32 of the top courses in 32 counties in 32 consecutive days in 2007 for my charity project. I am also a qualified lead auditor and believe the process of compiling the top 100 should have a strict points structure, where each course is assessed out of 10 over a range of categories by the assessor (member of the judging panel) as part of a defined template. No assessor should be allowed to have a direct affiliation with any club.
As in professional auditing, the assessor should sit down with the manager/director of golf following the visit to the course to agree and sign off on the final total points. This would create a fair template for all the clubs, eliminate any disquiet from clubs following the visit, and give them a corrective action/improvement report for the following year, ie something to work through in order to secure a better ranking the following season.
Categories could encompasss everything from layout, to facilities, welcome, standard of upkeep, greens, playability, value for money etc etc.
Aswell as that other categories should be introduced to give clubs that dont make the top 10 something to be proud of and market. ie Best greens in Ireland, The hidden gem award, best value for money, best par three, stunning scenery award, toughest layout, a greenkeeper award, most stunning hole etc.
Other options would be to publish each member of the panel's individual top-10 and get the likes of Padraig, Rory, Darren, GMac to give their top 10 and publish those as little inserts in the issue. Also some weighting should be given to the public vote which could be garnered using forums such as the Golf Digest facebook page, Ireland's two biggest golf sites ie Brian's and Mine, and the likes of linkedin.

What you would end up with is not just a Golf Digest top-100, but a Golf Digest Ireland awards, with more interesting content for the reader and a whole lot more to cheer about for the courses.

I have already chatted to John Shortt about some of these ideas, feel free to contact me through www.golfcentraldaily.com or through John if you wish to put together a discussion group to consider improvements. Regards, Donal Hughes, golfcentraldaily.com and Irish Examiner

December 12, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterDonal Hughes

Totally agree with Donal Hughes and have been advocating this sort of Policy in such least for over 5years but alas to no avail. The Golfing Public are not stupid and thankfully I believe the knowledgable amongst them are not duped by such mis-information.

December 13, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterEnda Lonergan

Hi Donal,

You’ve some nice ideas there.

A couple of your suggestions I’d be diametrically opposed to though. Rating facilities and welcome has no place in a golf course ranking. If we were ranking golf clubs, it may be different. Also, I’m not so sure about your auditing procedure.

Anyway, seeing as you’ve tied in with John, I will do the same. So I’m sure our paths will cross soon.

Best Regards,
Ally

December 13, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterAlly McIntosh

Facilties Ally? Are you kidding me? Do you think a tourist who takes a cold shower in a mouldy locker room or gets food poisoning from a dodgy clubhouse burger is going to go away with a good memory whatever the standard of the golf course?
"Facilities" possibly shouldn't have a huge weighting in the overall points template but the category would be very helpful in making clubs aware of where they can improve their product.
"Welcome" might also be a subcategory with less weighting but its nevertheless very important for clubs to become "downright friendly" again as mentioned at the recent road to recovery conference in Dublin.
These were just a couple of ideas that I hoped might trigger some debate and ultimately some reform of the system.

December 13, 2010 | Unregistered Commentergolfcentraldaily

I believe that Donal is getting closer to a formula for assessing golf courses... I have given this plenty of thought since the "list" appeared.
If Donal, or Brian.. or anybody else, would like a discussion on this, then feel free to contact me.
No matter how, you look at this, the critical factor in assessing any golf course is the "fun" and "enjoyment" factors... of course these will be influenced the varying factors that make a golf course enjoyable or not.
While I do not like "lists" (katastichophobia... I think), they do offer up some worthwhile debate... if they are assembeld properly of course. Otherwise its meaningless debate...


Ken.

December 13, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterKen Kearney

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